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SCIENCE & SPIRITUALITY
Is God Already Scientifically Proven? – A Discussion with Dr. Amit Goswami.
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I often say that, “Look,
scientific evidence
for God is already here.”
That’s given.
Because
so much evidence now
exists in this, on so many
diverse phenomena
in psychology, in biology,
in medicine.
And physics,
of course, has
quantum measurement.
So, we can rest
that question aside.
God is already proven
scientifically, both
in theory and experiment.
Welcome, kind viewers, to
Science and Spirituality.
Dr. Goswami has been
a professor of physics and
a member of the Institute
of Theoretical Science at
the University of Oregon,
USA since 1968.
He is the author
of 12 books,
including a well regarded
university textbook
on quantum mechanics,
and a series of popular
physics and spirituality
works, including
“God is Not Dead,”
and his latest,
“Creative Evolution.”
Dr Goswami has also
gained recognition by
appearing in the popular
2004 documentary
“What the Bleep
Do We Know?” and
the 2009 award-winning
documentary, of which
he is the subject,
“The Quantum Activist.”
According to
many spiritual traditions,
God manifests as
Universal Consciousness,
a spiritual force
that interconnects
all sentient beings,
and is the source of
downward causation
or the concept that
processes at lower levels
are bound by the laws
of a higher level.
But what is consciousness?
Can you close your eyes
for a moment,
and imagine
your other senses are
not functioning as well?
With eyes closed, please
try to answer the question:
Does the world still exist
even though you aren’t
conscious of it?
If your answer is yes,
how do you know?
Well, there are highly
respectable physicists
who stretched
their imagination
and “did their math.”
Believe it or not,
their answer is “no.”
They maintain
that the universe,
in order to exist,
requires a conscious
sentient being to be
aware of it, and that,
without an observer,
it only exists
as a possibility.
One of these scientists
is Dr. Amit Goswami.
SMTV (m):
Today we’ll be
discussing with our guest
Amit Goswami, various
aspects of spirituality
and science related to
quantum physics, namely
a new paradigm shift,
and we’ll be explaining
what that shift is.
It seems that
quantum physics is
a perfect mathematical
representation
of reality around us;
actually everything
is quantum physics.
And we have to deal with
microscopic invisible
particles like electrons,
atoms, and molecules
in order to
understand our world.
But they behave
very strangely.
They can
explore entire areas
and be at the same time
at different places,
have different energies,
have different momenta
and most important,
we cannot perceive them
with our five senses.
They only show
one facet of their reality,
like localized particles.
We call it
quantum measurement
or observations.
Can you actually explain
to our viewers
what happens during
these observations?
And what actually
is this quantum realm
that they live in, why
we cannot perceive it?
And what is its relation
to our physical world?
This is the most
important question
of quantum physics.
Quantum physics
says literally that
objects are possibilities,
and in possibilities
they can be at two places,
more than one place
at the same time,
which boggles our mind.
But it's in possibility;
that’s the key
to understanding
these objects.
In possibility
they can be in states of
several different energies,
several different momenta,
several different positions,
and that’s okay.
We sometimes call them
“waves of possibilities.”
That’s the more
accurate description,
because the word “wave”
brings in a technical
aspect of this possibility.
They are coherent
super-positions.
And the problem that
quantum physics has
is that
material interactions can
convert possibility only
into more possibilities,
but never can collapse
the possibilities
into an actuality.
In other words, how
from the possibility wave
(do) you get an actual
localized particle?
How is it that a many
faceted object becomes
a one faceted object?
That is the mystery
of quantum physics.
So the idea arose first
from a mathematician,
John von Newman,
that it must be
our looking that
is doing this transition,
and therefore if it is us,
then our consciousness
must have a
non-material component.
Our consciousness
must be non-material
to put it bluntly.
Material interactions
we know express by
the exchange of energy.
But the energy of the
material universe alone
is always a constant.
So how does then
the material world
interact with
the non-material world
which is outside of it?
And the answer is that
from the energy
conservation law itself,
it can’t.
So scientists have been
very skeptical of any kind
of dualistic introduction
of consciousness.
The new paradigm shift
is the idea that
if consciousness
is the ground of all being,
reversing the usual
scientific metaphysics
that matter
is the ground of all being
and material objects
are possibilities of
this consciousness itself.
Then consciousness
is choosing from
its own possibilities,
and no interaction,
no signal is involved,
signal-less communication,
which in quantum physics
we call non-locality,
and that’s
what makes the choice.
So conscious choice,
out of the many facets,
is responsible for why
we only observe one facet.
But in any observation,
we have some kind of
interaction with other
objects, like detectors;
Niels Bohr said
that we don’t have
any other choice,
but we can only observe
through experiments with
classical instruments.
Niels Bohr was right,
we need to amplify the
sub-microscopic objects.
They need to be amplified
to the macroscopic
before we can
collapse them, before
we can perceive them.
The brain plays
a very interesting role.
Eventually the brain
sees itself as a subject,
so consciousness
identifies with the brain
becomes the subject
of the experience,
and the object
that is collapsed from
its wave of possibility to
the particle of actuality
becomes the object
of the experience.
And this itself also
is a paradox from the
materialist point of view.
Why? Because
materialists posit
that consciousness itself
is composed of objects,
but, interaction of objects
can only produce
an object.
Including energy which
is also a material object.
Absolutely.
So you can never
get a subject out of object
interactions of objects.
This is the hard question
of consciousness
according to
the philosopher
David Chalmers.
So where does the feeling
of subjectivity come from?
The feeling of subjectivity
must come from
the quantum
measurement itself.
There is a tangled
hierarchy in the brain.
A tangled hierarchy
can be understood
by examining a sentence
like the liar’s paradox:
“I am a liar”
It’s the circular statement.
If I am the liar,
then I’m telling the truth;
if I’m telling the truth,
then I’m lying.
So this continuing
back and forth
between the two levels
of the hierarchy.
So that's the statement,
which refers to itself.
Exactly.
It’s a self-referential
sentence,
a circular measurement
by a circular apparatus.
An apparatus
which has this tangled
hierarchical circularity
in it will always
produce self-reference,
and this is how the brain
produces self- reference,
and consciousness
identifies with the brain.
But there are
two elements necessary
in perception, memory,
in order to
interpret perception,
and the mechanism
of receiving signals
from outside reality.
The reason why we feel
separated from the object
comes from the fact
that we identify
with our experience, with
our memories, right?
Yes.
Look at the way that
you said it, perception
requests memory,
but memory requests
perception, otherwise
where would the memory
come from?
So this is
the basic circularity.
We never know
what’s first, right?
Exactly.
We will be right back
to continue
our fascinating talk
with Dr. Amit Goswami.
Please stay tuned to
Supreme Master
Television.
Welcome back to
Science and Spirituality.
Today we are having
an in-depth discussion
regarding the notion
of consciousness
as the basis of all being,
in a spiritual sense, with
all processes at our level
bound by laws
of a higher level.
This idea helped
Dr. Amit Goswami,
a theoretical physicist
and author, to bypass
the major difficulties
in understanding
the quantum
measurement problem in
quantum physics, which
was insurmountable
assuming that everything
is made of matter.
The following
conversation shows it is
not so easy to step away
from the logic of the
materialistic worldview.
You said that
the basic mechanism
of what physicists call
“collapsing of the wave”
into the localized
particle, is because
it interacts with
our consciousness.
But do you have in mind
Universal Consciousness?
Yes, it’s
not separate from us.
It’s universal
interconnectedness
among all sentient beings.
What about these
waves of possibilities?
Because if they are
part of consciousness,
that means the
Universal Consciousness
overlaps, or intercepts
our physical space,
because in
a double slit experiment,
we measure interference
of these waves,
in a physical space.
If they are part of the
Universal Consciousness
that means that
Universal Consciousness
is around us
also in physical space.
It may have
extra dimensions, but….
It is “in” and “around us,”
the word that (is) used
in spiritual tradition
is very good –
“transcendence.”
Consciousness transcends;
there is something
that is a causation
that is happening
outside of space and time,
space-time universe,
but it can affect
things inside
the space-time universe.
So it’s both in and out.
It’s better to talk
to about these things,
not in a straightforward
fashion, but recognize the
paradox from the get-go.
It does not
make logical sense
in the sense we used,
to say that something is
both inside and outside.
But that is
what we have to posit.
Okay.
But one thing is settled,
that we measure those
waves in physical space.
Therefore,
Universal Consciousness
has to be around us.
You went too fast
and pulled a fast one.
This is the point.
The waves along with this
Universal Consciousness,
there the waves
are possibilities of this
Universal Consciousness.
Space-time has not
come up yet, space-time
is part of the collapse…
Right. But nevertheless
we see
the interference pattern.
We never see
the interference pattern
until we have collected
a whole bunch of objects.
We can guess that that
there is interference.
These are
not ordinary objects
because they don’t fall
in the expected places
where ordinary
Newtonian objects
would have fallen.
But only after we have
collected many electrons
falling on the screen
we can tell that there is
something peculiar
about this object.
But we are
never measuring
a multi-faceted object.
We are never measuring
a wave in space and time.
So these waves
are possibility. (Werner)
Heisenberg had it right;
they reside in potentia,
transcendent potentia.
They don’t reside in
the space-time universe.
If it’s inside and outside,
it’s exactly what I said;
that there is
some intercept.
We can never get a clear
description in terms of
the descriptive language
that we have
without having
some sort of uncertainty,
some sort of difficulty
in use of language.
Right, our mind
with our memories
basically interprets things
within the mainframe
of five senses; therefore
we want to see it
as a particle, therefore
somehow it projects
our methodology
into the outer reality.
We projecting (our)
habits into the reality.
Absolutely.
So then our perception
becomes clouded,
influenced
by our memories.
And this is what
produces, eventually,
a way of perception
that each of us have,
that we call the ego,
our character.
That’s right.
Is quantum consciousness
the same as spiritual
Universal Consciousness
according
to Eastern religions,
(so) that it’s evidence
of downward causation
of God?
Yes.
I think that
it doesn’t matter what
word or phrase you’re
using to describe it.
The perfect
description of it
is that it is the source
of downward causation.
It’s the source
of causation which
cannot be explained
with material level
of causation, with
material interaction.
So what actually
is that causation?
It’s somewhere
in the upper worlds?
We should
be very careful here.
It’s not outside of us either.
Ordinarily because
of these memories
that we talked about,
we become identified
with individuality
that memories gives us.
But if we can
rise above the memories,
there is that
Universal Consciousness
that we belong to.
So every one of us
are privileged to have
this extraordinary
or non-ordinary states of
consciousness in which
we are universal.
We sincerely thank
Dr. Amit Goswami
for participating in this
insightful discussion and
his extraordinary work
towards bridging spiritual
Universal Consciousness
with the foundations
of quantum physics.
Our appreciation,
friendly viewers,
for joining us today.
Next up is
Words of Wisdom,
after Noteworthy News.
May quantum
consciousness keep you
interconnected
with the Divine.
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